SuperManager
SuperManager
SuperManager: Technical vs Management
So many managers are promoted because of their skills at doing the job. But is management the right path to take, or are there other options. What are the pros and cons of taking a promotion into management?
Listen in on our supermanager panel:
Host:
Samantha Naes - CN Video Production
Guests:
Joel Emery - Ignite Strategies
Kristen Reed Edens - Kristen Edens LLC
Mary Kutheis - MCK Coaching
CN Video Production: 0:02
You're listening to SuperManager. The podcast with a diverse panel of experts discussing what goes on in the office. And your host, Samantha Naes with CN Video, your businesses video team on call.
Samantha Naes: 0:15
I remember in my IT career you start off and you just want to get that job. You get that technical job and I was a systems programmer at Washington University, and then I was a software engineer at Sigma Aldrich, and kind of grew from there, and I remember when it got to that point where the next step seemed to be management, they kind of gradually ease you into it. You're really good at what you do technically, and so they have other people working on your team, and you're kind of showing them the ropes. And the next thing you know, you're leading the project and then you're managing the people and it doesn't necessarily feel like a bad thing because you consider it a promotion and it's presented to you as a promotion. You're being promoted to management. It didn't come along with any training, but I know several people that have taken that promotion gotten into management, and I was one of them where you're really good at what you do, whether it's sales or software engineer or whatever. You're really good at what you do and they make you a manager, and then all of a sudden you don't like your job anymore.
Samantha Naes: 1:13
And so this week we're gonna be talking about making that choice in your career, whether you want to stay technical and do the work or move down the management path. And I have my very decisive super team with me. We have
Joel Emery: 1:26
Joel Emery with atomic revenue and ignite strategies I serve as a sales systems architect for small and mid sized businesses.
Kristen Edens: 1:33
Hello and I'm Kristen Edens of kristenedens.com, and I'm a copywriter and content specialist for business, and
Mary Kutheis: 1:39
I'm Mary Kutheis with M. C. K Coaching. I'm an executive coach, working with business owners and leaders in larger organizations,
Samantha Naes: 1:46
and I am Samantha Naes with CN Video. I used to be very technical, and now I do corporate video production.
Samantha Naes: 1:54
How do you make that decision
Joel Emery: 1:56
question? I mean, I've always viewed it as the only opportunity to make more money to increase your income is to go into some form of management structure within our organization. But is that the case? Uh,
Samantha Naes: 2:07
no. I think that people that are highly technical, it's been my experience, the technical path really technically paid as much.
Joel Emery: 2:16
Okay,
Samantha Naes: 2:16
and actually a friend of mine works for a larger organization. And he was just recently given this. They actually presented it to him as two separate paths. Do you want to become a manager? Do you want to continue on the technical path? And it was geared to where a lot of companies have levels. Like this job title is a level six and that job titles a Level seven and then based on what level you are, you're pay can be between this range and that range, and the management seem to go up into higher levels. And what the company did was they had added additional levels like a two a three a four on the technical side so that the pay would match and they started adding bonus incentives for people to stay technical. You've reached the top of your level. You've reached the top of your pay scale. Now you're going to start getting an annual bonus of 10 20 $30,000 so that the pay actually matched the management. I know a lot of companies are doing that now.
Joel Emery: 3:11
That sounds good for some companies, but it's not always an option where somebody is that all right?
Mary Kutheis: 3:15
I think it has to be a consideration of both skill and desire. If someone may not have the skill but still want to be a manager, well, then they need to be on a track to learn, because most people can learn that if they want to take some concerted coaching and mentoring and things like that. But recognizing is this something you want to do? And if you want to stay on the technical side, it doesn't mean that you don't have to have any of the same skills that a manager has. But you're not leading people.
Samantha Naes: 3:45
I think you need to ask yourself why. it's kind of like a police officer. There are people that become police officers for the right reasons and people that become officers for the wrong reasons. The right reasons are protect and serve, and I wantto help solve the crime problems that we're having and the wrong reasons, our power. I want to have power over other people. I want to be able to pull people over. I want to, and you get people that join for both of those reasons. And I think it's the same thing with management when faced with that choice. It's very important to understand why. are do you want to go into management Because you're a people person and you have good leadership skills and that's what you want to do with your life. Or are you going into it because you're tired of being bossed around? You want to be the one in charge, right?
Joel Emery: 4:31
And I see I see one other one other reason too. It's just that's the way it's supposed to be. You've seen it may be mirrored, you know, in your parents and your grandparents before you and presumably threats before that. And so it's just it's just what do you do
Kristen Edens: 4:45
and to add to that.. I'm sorry.
Joel Emery: 4:46
But looking beyond that isn't even a concept.
Samantha Naes: 4:50
Well, in the workforce though, they phrase it that way. I mean, a lot of people present the path as you start off in the mail room and your work your way up to VP. They don't really emphasize a path where you stay good at what you do, where your technical.
Kristen Edens: 5:04
There's a movie based on that, and I can't. It was an eighties movie. I can't remember what it had. Ah, Michael J. Fox. He started in the mail room and worked up to some massive thing. But back to what Mary was saying about There's two things involved here. It's the skill and then the desire. So addressing the skill side of that, you need to have it. Sure, you might be with a company long enough to pick up these things and be able to improve upon it and build it. But if you're advanced into this managerial position, you don't have a skill. There's a thing called the Peter Principle
Samantha Naes: 5:38
right (chuckling)
Kristen Edens: 5:38
which creates a problem. Now, the desire might be another thing, because we all want to move up that corporate laddering along with that gets the pay raise
Samantha Naes: 5:47
it's the prestige.
: 4:51
Mary Kutheis: 5:48
But some people may not want to move up the corporate ladder they may be very happy where they are
Kristen Edens: 5:53
that is the second point is
Samantha Naes: 5:56
If you feel that way and you know you feel that way then good. Good for you. I think a lot of people don't realize that they feel that way, though. It's the prestige, it's the getting A promotion. It feels like if you're gonna stand still, if you don't,
Mary Kutheis: 6:07
If if you don't. If you don't want that, then you're a loser with no ambition,
Joel Emery: 6:12
right? And that's not all your friends from high school or college. Whatever the frame, when they're becoming the senior partner at this law firm or that law firm and you're looking yourself I'm a line two programmer
Samantha Naes: 6:24
I'm a technician
Joel Emery: 6:24
and then feeling bad about yourself when you shouldn't necessarily.
Kristen Edens: 6:28
But also think about it. I'm sure everybody here has seen the movie King's Speech, The King's Speech. Okay, he did not want to be king. He wanted to be a Navy man and because his brother abdicated and he just did not want it. So there's a clear case of somebody who did not want the job, but it was forced upon him. He had no choice, and he had to make the best of it. But most of us are not a king to be your king.
Samantha Naes: 6:54
Yeah, that's a little unusual,
Kristen Edens: 6:56
but but but there's a story right there, so he maybe had the skill he just didn't have the desire. He had to give up what he really wanted was Navy involvement.
Samantha Naes: 7:07
I think that type of story goes back to power, though, because usually the moral of this story is your best leaders or the people that didn't want to be leaders in the first place. But that's not necessarily that they didn't want to be leaders. It's that they didn't want the power. And I think when people go into management and leadership for the control and for the power, those of the wrong reasons, those people that don't make good leaders when they go into it because they have a knack for it or it's what they want to do, it's how they feel comfortable or natural. Then,
Joel Emery: 7:35
so how frame this in two questions both. How does an individual assess and determine what they want to do next? But then also, as a manager, how do you help or you say, an HR department and I'm thinking small business. I think that larger companies, your nationwide health care companies, lending institutions, financial advisors, a lot of those have a lot of these things better structured, but I'm thinking of smaller businesses say 40 employees, 15 employees in that sort of space. How do you as a manager, leader, company owner help people decide if they should go Management path. I see a lot of managers. You know, I think this is being a male issue and specific, like they see they're younger employees is being reflections of themselves. And, you know, you should come up through and don't do the same path that I did. And I kind of project that on.
Mary Kutheis: 8:25
I think an inividual can only figure that out for themselves. And it just takes some some thought. I mean, take that
Samantha Naes: 8:33
I was going to say the exact opposite of that. I want to hear your perspective because I was going to say the exact opposite. I think it has to be the manager that helps guide the individual. Go. I mean, go ahead and explain why.
Mary Kutheis: 8:42
I mean, because I mean, you have to know yourself what you want. You mean you have to. What do you like? It means the same thing about a career. If everybody in your family is an attorney, so you have to become an attorney because that's what everybody does. Then you haven't really thought about it. It was a decision that was kind of made for you. And I think you have to look at your own skills. You have to look at what will my days be like If I am in a leadership position, What will I be doing in the position and would I like that? because I knew someone who was going to get there MBA in order to move up the ranks. And when they got to the accounting and those economics classes that you have to take, it was just absolutely miserable in those classes. And we finally said, Why would you continue on a path that will get you a degree to do something you hate, right? I mean, maybe you just don't want to advance in that organization if that's what it requires.
Samantha Naes: 9:38
But here's the issue, with the individual really knowing what they want. First of all, you don't enter as a manager. You don't graduate and get hired as a leader without at least kind of working your way up the ranks a little bit. It would be a mistake to bring somebody in with no experience to manage a team so you're brought in and maybe you're brought in with the goal of becoming a leader, becoming a manager, and that's where you would know that that's what you want to do. But I think most people have a career or a job that they get and they work and they're good at it and then it's presented to them. This promotion, it's, you know, this are there's an opening were you know, somehow, But you say the individual has to ask themself, Would I enjoy doing this? What I but do they really does The individual really know what it's going to be like without guidance from their supervisor, saying These are things that you need to consider This is what it's like or
Mary Kutheis: 10:34
one. I think that more often there are people who need to manage their own trajectory. I don't think that there are very many companies that are saying, Hey, I'd like to give you this promotion. I think when the person brings it up, they're more than happy to talk about it, but they're busy doing their job. I think maybe really great organizations that's happening, but I think more often than not, people are just going along doing their job,
Joel Emery: 11:00
I can. I mean, I think I'm thinking anecdotally as opposed to data driven. But I mean, I see so many situations where maybe somebody's been an assistant director of this or that, and then the director position moves, and then they get promoted up into the director, and it just it just kind of flows almost like nobody's really thought through. You know, whether it's the leadership of the company or the individual is. Basically it's easier just to promote this person up into that
Samantha Naes: 11:21
well or you get a couple of different people that are saying Hey, so and so's leaving. Who do you think's going to take over as...?
Mary Kutheis: 11:27
But I don't think that that is the thoughtful approach. I don't think that's right person going for themselves, saying What do I want?
Joel Emery: 11:34
You're right But I think that's more typical than not. So my question is, how do we help individuals or companies break out of that cycle?
Mary Kutheis: 11:41
I think there's two things that one. I think the onus is on the individual to have the self confidence and the knowledge of their own skills to be able to advocate for themselves. That's one thing, and that's just your own personal development that you undertake as a human being in your effort to per self actualization.
Samantha Naes: 12:02
But do people know how to do that.
Mary Kutheis: 12:03
Well, that's why there are coaches
Samantha Naes: 12:05
Okay, so you're saying the employee should take it upon themselves to get the proper coaching in order to be able to manage your career.
Mary Kutheis: 12:14
I think if anybody who has any desire to improve themselves in any way, there are a lot of ways to do that. I mean, you could get a book from the bookstore. You could do some online training. You can take a course. You can go to night school, you can do all sorts of things. It's the curiosity about what could I do next or what can I do better? Hopefully, people have that not everybody does, but it's learning about what makes you tick. I think it's fascinating, so I do a lot of that, and I facetiously, said a coach, there's a lot of different ways that a person can learn about themselves, but that's a part of it, and it's also part of an organization to have a path for people to grow
Samantha Naes: 12:58
right right a little bit on both sides. I was going to say to your point, It's actually kind of sad. Audible now keeps recommending self improvement books for me. You seem to like these. I was looking at it. I was like, Maybe I need to slow on these a little b it.
Mary Kutheis: 13:14
It's fascinating stuff, if you get one little tip out of a book. It's worth it.
Samantha Naes: 13:17
It is. It's always good to learn. But then the other side of that is the a little bit of the company's responsibility. I mean, it's not just the employees that suffers if they end up in the wrong position, if somebody is promoted into management and they were happier with technical and they're not good in leadership position. Obviously, anytime you promote someone to management, there should be training that comes along with it. If they didn't enter as like, they were manager for another company, and now they're coming to manage for your company. If there promoted to management, there has to be some kind of recognition from the company from the organization that says you can accept this position, but we need to give you some sort of leadership training or some sort of management training.
Joel Emery: 13:54
So you're saying that like That's obvious. And yes, it's obvious. But,
Samantha Naes: 13:59
oh, it never happens, right? Right.
Mary Kutheis: 14:01
Well, and the other thing is that the hierarchy it's the CEO should be checking in with the rest of the C suite. who are checking in with all the VPs who are checking in with older directors. And if everybody has learned those leadership and management skills from the top down, then it's happening. And you have people who are insightful, curious, skilled leaders who helped draw that. They're part of the source of people learning about themselves because they have someone from the outside who's sort of mentoring and leading.
Joel Emery: 14:33
So what, what I hear you saying, though that is, at the end of the day, it's the responsibility of the president. CEO are chief executive of whatever, sort of
Mary Kutheis: 14:40
I think absolutely it starts at the very top. I mean, if they're unwilling to consider improving their own leadership skills, that's gonna be trouble all the way down all the way down
Samantha Naes: 14:51
well, on that often that often is a problem.
Mary Kutheis: 14:53
Yeah, it is a problem. Absolutely. I wrote a blog post recently that said, the higher you are on the Org chart, the less you know about yourself because people won't tell you people won't tell you things because the stakes are too high. So I said, If you're not getting any professional development insight from other people, you desperately need it.
Samantha Naes: 15:12
Well, I think professional development, though, does need to be a part of something that is available to everyone because, like, for example, we flowed right into going from technician to management. But I do think that companies do need to offer options to employees for staying on the technical side. There's got to be an alternative. You've got to be able to continue with your career without going into management. There has to be some kind of path presented.
Mary Kutheis: 15:39
You start on an administrative track and you maybe you want to be at the top of your career, you want to be the executive's assistant. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. That is a skill set that not everybody has its vital to an organization so that the people that they're working for can focus on the things that they do best, so that the administrative assistant could do the things that that person does best and there's there's no one that should be looking down upon someone who wants to stay in the administrative position for their entire life. It's a skill.
: 15:37
Kristen Edens: 16:09
Well, in the previous session. We were talking about the yearly review, and it seems that those have faded out now, right? But they haven't been replaced with anything
Mary Kutheis: 16:20
because people don't like having what they deemed to be difficult conversations. But the conversations don't have to be difficult. It's how people are thinking about it.
Joel Emery: 16:28
it requires a degree of discipline and planning,
Kristen Edens: 16:31
and and then on the employees side, it's It's almost like going to the principal's office. And you're just afraid.
Samantha Naes: 16:37
Yeah, but I'm not. I'm not necessarily talking about performance reviews. I am talking about career development.
Kristen Edens: 16:43
I know, but that's what I'm saying is maybe those performance reviews need to be
Samantha Naes: 16:48
include career development,
Kristen Edens: 16:50
maybe, or shift into career development. Hey, Mary, you're doing great at here. We want to help you grow. How can we help you do that? And maybe...
Mary Kutheis: 16:58
What would growth look like to you?
Kristen Edens: 17:00
Yes. Yes.
Mary Kutheis: 17:01
I mean, because one of you, like I really like, is to do even better at this job. I really enjoy this job. and for now I want to stay here. I really like this. I think I'm a good contributor. A solid contributor. So the leader needs to ask, What do you want? And if they say well, you know, I don't really know. We'll say, Well, you know what? Here's a few ways that you might be able to think about that. Here's some questions you can ask yourself Let's talk again in a month.
Kristen Edens: 17:23
But then the employee needs also the opportunity to have that conversation and then the comfort to say, Well, I'm thinking this or, How can I better do?
Samantha Naes: 17:33
And I actually have a story and I know this may get cut. I don't know if I want to actually include this, but it is very much to that point. One of my first full time jobs was at Washington University. I was a systems programmer, and I'd been there for a couple years, and I really like being technical. And the director of the department called me into his office one day and he said, Hey, just wanted to talk with you. You're doing a really great job. We really love having you here what's next for you. And you've been a systems programmer, a senior systems programmer. What interests you have. I want to talk about your career development. And I said, You know what? I appreciate the conversation, but right now I'm just really enjoying what I'm doing. So I'd like to stick with it. Did it for another year and then hit the ceiling. And I was like, Okay, enough. So I went back into his office because he had initiated the previous conversation and it was actually very awkward. It had a good ending, but it was very awkward conversation, I said, Do you remember when you asked me about where I wanted to go, what I want to do? And he said, Yeah, and I said, I'm ready for a change And he said, Okay, what would you like to do? And I said, I don't know. Can you, like, read me a list of job openings that you've got? And I'll see if any of them sound good. And he actually laughed at me when I said that, he chuckled, but I didn't know how to answer that question. I'm like, Well, how would I know what I want to do. I don't know what's available. I don't know what you're looking for, and he actually came up with a good answer, he said. I'll tell you what. We work with a consulting firm around the corner that will actually do some testing and help you determine what you want to do and what you're good at, and then we'll review it with them and try to find you something based on that. And that actually worked out quite well. But as an employee, it was very awkward conversation being asked, What do you want to do? Because within an organization, how do I know what opportunities are available?
Mary Kutheis: 19:07
And see my thought is That's part of being in an organization is kind of keeping your ears open and your eyes open as you talk to other people. What are they doing? Well, that sounds like that be interesting. So it's having some interaction with other people other than just doing your job. That kind of says, Oh, that sounds interesting. And so even if there would have been, well, this is what I'm getting tired of, and here's something that I think would be interesting. I don't know if there's an opportunity to do that. But this is something I think would be fulfilling. Maybe then asking what kind of jobs might include that? Because for him to say, which job do you want? It would be weird, but also to say, Well, I don't have any idea. You tell me. I mean, it really needs to be
Samantha Naes: 19:48
Neither one of us knew what we were doing. We both wanted to have the conversation. We didn't know how to have it.
Samantha Naes: 19:55
Does anybody have a horror story having to do with maybe somebody who made the wrong choice?
Mary Kutheis: 20:00
I worked in an organization where sales people were kind of They were the big deals. I mean, they were out selling and the people who did a really, really, really good job at sales and hit their peaks. They hit their caps, were brought inside to manage other salespeople and for some of them worked out just fine. But for a lot of them, they hated it because they were hunters. They were out there, enjoyed the thrill of selling, and now they were just beating up on other people to hit their numbers.
Samantha Naes: 20:32
Doing the job in managing other people doing the job are two very different things.
Mary Kutheis: 20:37
That's why it's important to check in with yourself when you're doing a job. Am I enjoying this? Is this something that I like? Is this something that I am excited about getting better at? And that's where you have to know yourself because your boss may be looking at it from the outside. Maybe you're really good at hiding it. Who knows? Or maybe they're just not paying attention because they're so busy. That's where you've got to know what you want, at least in increments. A little bit of the time you're figuring more and more and more of it out,
Samantha Naes: 21:03
and I think that if you're aware of it before it's too late, you shouldn't be ashamed or afraid to turn back
Mary Kutheis: 21:09
absolute,
Samantha Naes: 21:10
to go back and say, You know what? I'm not happy with this. I really want to go back. And I think people kind of need to get past or organizations, people need to kind of change the idea that your career isn't going anywhere if you don't go into management or leadership.
Kristen Edens: 21:24
I think that goes back to what Joel was saying earlier is when you're visiting family and everybody's well, I'm this and that and, well, I'm just a just Bill, just an ordinary bill (laughing).
Samantha Naes: 21:39
We've signed your bill. Now you're law. (cheering)
Mary Kutheis: 21:40
One of the other challenges is going to be There's probably gonna be a salary cap for that position, so a person's going to not be able to continue to make a whole bunch more money because you become too expensive in that position unless it gets more and more and more difficult doing that technical piece of it. But if there's a cap on that particular skill and that's what they're willing to pay, then they're gonna find somebody younger and newer who's willing to work for that where the older person is gonna want more and more money.
Samantha Naes: 22:09
When you get more into work, life balance there, you need to make a decision. Is the prestige of being a manager or the higher salary worth doing something that I don't enjoy as much?
CN Video Production: 22:18
Thanks for listening to SuperManager by CN Video P roduction. Give us a call at 314-843-3663 That's 314-VideoMe or visit our website at cn-video.com for additional episodes, information or to discuss video services.