SuperManager
SuperManager
SuperManager: Dealing with Imposter Syndrome
Do you fear being found out at work? On the outside everything seems like it's going great. But on the inside, you're a mess up away from the boss knowing you're a bad fit for the job? Listen to this week's SuperManager podcast in which our panelists discuss Imposter Syndrome.
Find out, by being a fly on the wall in this podcast discussion with:
Samantha Naes - CN Video Production
Jeff Koziatek - Core Authenticity
Mike Kitko - Mike Kitko Coaching
Angie Kitko - Mike Kitko Coaching
Christine Lawrence: 0:00
you're listening to SuperManager podcast for people who manage people and business with ideas, trends, and expert interviews to help you be a Super Manager!
: 0:11
Sam Naes: 0:11
I remember a long time ago. My first job was I worked in the actuarial department for an insurance company and I was kind of doing data entry work. And I learned how to write computer programs. I learned how to take... What was before Excel something 123?
Jeff Koziatek: 0:27
Wait, people were alive before Excel?
Angie Kitko: 0:29
Yes, What was that? 1,2, I remember that!
Mike Kitko: 0:32
Holy crap!
Sam Naes: 0:33
It was before, it was the spreadsheet program before Excel.
Mike Kitko: 0:36
Something 123 You're right I can't remember!
Jeff Koziatek: 0:39
I don't know what the heck y'all taking about.
Sam Naes: 0:40
But you could write little programs and macros in there. And so I started writing these little programs in macros, and that's kind of what started my career as a computer programmer. But I never got paid what the other programmers got paid, and it could have been a gender bias thing, but I think more than likely it was because I felt like I didn't belong. I felt like, Well, they're all professionals, and I just kind of taught myself how to do this. So I'm not really a programmer. I'm just kind of getting away with it. I'm just kind of passing his one. And it really affected me. I was afraid to speak up when I had ideas out of fear of being discovered, that people were gonna realize I didn't know what I was talking about. Or that I didn't belong and "Who let her in? How'd she get in here?" And people would tell me, "You're very good at this!" And I didn't actually believe it until years later, after working with enough people that weren't real programmers that weren't (laugh) that weren't as good as me. And you start to realize that it's not really about the skills. It's more about the confidence. You know, how you feel about yourself.
Sam Naes: 1:48
This week we're gonna be talking about dealing with imposter syndrome, and I have my very, really non imposter super friends with me. We have...
: 0:42
Mike Kitko: 1:56
My name is Mike Kitko. I am a executive coach with Mike Kiko Coaching. I help executives feel as powerful inside as they appear on the outside. And I just published my first book, The Imposter in Charge.
Sam Naes: 2:06
Awesome.
Angie Kitko: 2:07
And I'm Angie Kitko, also with Mike Kitko Coaching and I am a speaker and connector.
Jeff Koziatek: 2:12
Jeff Koziatek with Core Authenticity. I help people reframe how they see themselves so they can change how they see other people.
Sam Naes: 2:19
And I am Samantha Naes with CN Video. We do corporate video production.
Mike Kitko: 2:23
Jeff mentioned something about this earlier, outside of the podcast discussion. The inside creates the outside, right? How you feel, the world treats you the way you feel about yourself, and you'll attract that exactly into your life. And so I've had many of those stories, right? So I went through my whole entire life in corporate, you know, in the Marine Corps. I was being rewarded, given all these gifts and promoted and more compensation, and but I just I felt like it's all gonna fall apart at some point.
Sam Naes: 2:49
It's interesting for me to hear that you felt that way. And maybe it's just because I talk more with other women. But I wondered if it was a gender thing.
Mike Kitko: 2:57
No.
Jeff Koziatek: 2:57
You mentioned that the other day, and I have to vehemently disconcur!
Sam Naes: 3:02
You guys, you guys are feeling it too!
Mike Kitko: 3:05
Yeah, well, we're not guys, right? We're not allowed to express weakness. We're not allowed to show a lack of strength or courage. Or we're not allowed to be imperfect, that's all.
Angie Kitko: 0:00
That Bravado!
Mike Kitko: 3:16
That's all garbage. But that's the way we were raised anyway, Right?
Angie Kitko: 3:19
Society has done a huge disservice to the masculine.
Jeff Koziatek: 3:22
As a boy who loved art, and sunsets, and long walks on the beach, and asking questions, and being aware of what other people are feeling, what I'm feeling. I thought I was defective. Because every example of manliness was the opposite of that. And so for a long time I thought I needed to be something that I wasn't. So I would be accepted for being the guy. And it wasn't until five years ago that I realized, Oh, no, wait, this does not make me less of a man. This is just my skill set, and I can perhaps use that and grow that the more I tap into it, the stronger that could become. But just the idea that's not wrong. And then I can take the mask off and just be me was extremely liberating.
Mike Kitko: 4:08
Yeah, and I remember being a kid and having emotion, right? Falling skinning your knee or something happened or somebody said this thing that made me feel, and I'm talking four or five years old coming home from kindergarten, that this guy said this thing or this kid said this thing and you know, my brothers, I would be crying and they'd say, they called me a five letter name that starts with P right? So we're not allowed to have emotions as boys as guys. So we've gotta hide ourself. The two things that really sum up the impostor syndrome for me is, one is absolute self rejection. The other is inadequacy, is we're not adequate. And that's why we feel like an impostor. And that's why we feel like we're not a valued member of the team. Or it's all getting ready to fall apart or hope that my charade that I've been living in doesn't fall apart. Or I've gotta wear these masks or I have to demonstrate strength when I don't have any. Or I have to lie and cheat.
Sam Naes: 4:59
It's interesting you guys are talking about this feeling of adequacy, and it sounds like it's based on comparison with other people. And what's interesting is you're comparing how you're feeling on the inside to how other people are behaving on the outside, which is not a fair comparison.
Mike Kitko: 5:16
You're comparing your imperfections to what you see or your, your, your weaknesses, right? You're perceived weaknesses to somebody else's strengths.
Sam Naes: 5:25
To your perception of their strengths, though, because how you appear on the outside and how you feel on the inside are not always the same thing.
Mike Kitko: 5:32
Agreed. But when you see somebody demonstrate a skill, a talent and you see the result that they get, then there's some strength there. There's something there that they're doing, and you can see that there are aligned and they're good at that thing. You can see the result. You can see the outcome, and you can definitely see with your own eyes that they're doing something and its creating a result. And when you think well, I can't do that. So I'm broken.
Jeff Koziatek: 5:53
I was just going to say, I will never forget going to lunch with some friends of mine who had followed me as an entertainer. That's how we met. They met me as Juggling Jeff, and so they knew me as a guy that's on stage in front of hundreds or thousands of people. Being very loud, being very interactive.
Sam Naes: 6:10
This persona?
Jeff Koziatek: 6:11
Yeah, and so we get together for lunch and I am not that guy because we're not on stage. And we're just having a conversation, and I like to ask questions and listen a lot, andthat's not what I do when I'm on stage, right and I'll never forget. The wife looked at me and she goes, "You're very different." And I thought, "Wow, I'm sorry. Am I disappointing you?" Am I, am I coming up short?
Sam Naes: 6:35
You should of been juggling during the dinner.
Angie Kitko: 0:00
Ha ha yeah.
Jeff Koziatek: 6:35
Right? I'm like, This is me and I'm sorry that me is not enough. And In that moment, I felt like I needed to put on a mask and pretend to be something else, that we could continue to have the conversation and that would be enough for them. That was not cool.
Sam Naes: 6:48
You were talking about how other people's success and you're not being able to live up to other people's success. But I don't even know that's really so much it, because what I found is, it was really just low self esteem for me personally. I refuse to believe that I was legitimate at my job. I was worried that I was gonna be found out as somebody who really you know, didn't belong there or what not, But it's not because I saw other people's success. It was strictly what was on the inside. If I were really paying attention. Some of the people I were working with, really shouldn't have been there. I mean really legitimately shouldn't have been there.
Mike Kitko: 7:22
I think it's all inclusive, right? You know, I remember being a child and getting all A's and a B and my dad looking and saying "What happened?" Right? "What are you going to do to fix this thing?" And I'll be like, "Well, last year I almost failed fourth grade, and this year I've got all A's and a B, and you're asking me about the B and what are you going to do about that B?" And I'm like, "So I've got to be perfect in order to be adequate?" Got it! Okay, so now I take that fast forward and I'm in my corporate career and I see something that somebody could do that I can't. I feel broken. And what that did is it helped me realize that my talents, I should already be talented at those things. That's a given. I can't give myself credit for that. I've gotta work and concentrate on this thing that I can't do that you can. But I didn't understand that everyone has strengths and everyone has weaknesses that we concentrate so heavily on. In my situation on being perfect and overcoming that weakness that completely neglect And really, in essence, I was blind to the fact that I was talented. So there's a story that I tell my book that I worked for a company of $65 million manufacturing plant. I inherited six functional leaders. I let three of them go, I replaced him with 2, 2 leaders. So I consolidated some positions. Got this plant to perform at, $30 billion company, right? So the entire enterprise, I got this company to preform at a, it just a world class level. And then I felt like I had to get out of there because my functional leaders left me with nothing to do and I was completely not talented. I didn't understand that I can put together teams and develop them and help them achieve greatness. I didn't understand that that was my zone of genius and that was my gift.
Sam Naes: 8:56
You worry so much about meeting other people's expectations, like you at that dinner. You were so worried about meeting their expectations of what you should be like.
Mike Kitko: 9:05
I could-
Jeff Koziatek: 9:05
Right? Because in that moment when I'm just being me, you feel like you come up short. And like you're inadequate. And I feel like I'm not the only person that experience that.
Mike Kitko: 9:13
No, not at all. I need to be all things at all times to all people in order to be relevant.
Jeff Koziatek: 9:19
Which can be incredibly exhausting,
Mike Kitko: 9:21
which can be impossible right?
Jeff Koziatek: 9:23
Right, impossible. And because it's impossible, you're constantly fatigued. So at the end of the day, if you go home to your loved ones, there is nothing left and that's not sustainable.
: 0:00
Mike Kitko: 9:34
And I want to say in the present tense. I have to be all things to all people at all times. You know, that was before the transition that we made, and my wife is sitting here next to me. I was a different person in my marriage because I had to be who she wanted me to be than I was at the corporate office because that's who I needed to be there, and then I had friends and I needed to be a badass, marine, perfect, strong drink a lot in front of those guys and I had to be somebody different. So exhausting! You can't possibly be all things all people. And, luckily for me, it all fell apart. It all collapsed and I got to rebuild it in a way that was just unified.
: 10:09
Jeff Koziatek: 10:09
Wait. Did you say "Lucky for me? It all fell apart."
Angie Kitko: 10:13
Yep, yes!
Mike Kitko: 0:00
God-
Jeff Koziatek: 10:13
That's what I thought you said.
Mike Kitko: 10:14
Thank the heavens that everything fell apart! That I couldn't keep all the plates spinning all at the same time. And I couldn't keep that ruse up. Because when everything fell apart, that's when I realized that I had nothing figured out and I got to build everything back up in one image. And really overcoming the impostor syndrome is really just about, "This is who I'm gonna be and f you if you don't like that." And I say that with love. But it's really about deciding and embracing the fact that you are unique and you are valuable as yourself as your built, in your talents, in your weaknesses, in everything that you are right now. And if someone judges you, it's about their judgments about them. And it has nothing to do with you.
Sam Naes: 10:56
You know what's interesting about people that are entering the work force right now, I think they're all still millennials. They're all still kind of considered millennials. But there's like two stages of millennials: the millennials from a few years ago, and the millennials that are entering the workforce now have a real problem with imposter syndrome. So what I'm finding is when you put the two together, they're either on one end of the spectrum or the other. You have people so stressed out and anxiety levels now, people just graduating college, just entering the work force, their anxiety levels. Their suicide levels are extremely high because they've got these expectations that they're trying to meet, and you're seeing a lot of concerns about "Can I do it?" But on the other hand, you also have the generation, the you get an award for showing up generation that are on the opposite into the spectrum that actually come in and truly genuinely believe that they are great and can do anything, and they can't. And the funny thing is, is that when you've got somebody that's got that level of confidence, we do our internships in the summer, and we've got a video project who could do this and you have a few. That'll go. "I've got this. I've got it. No experience. But I'm great. I can do this, I've got it." And then you've got the few that go. "I'll help with that." and almost, I want to say, 90% of the time. The person who says I'll help is the one that could have done a better job at it than the person who actually stepped up and said, "I've got this."
Mike Kitko: 12:22
And going back to corporate days,the person who thought they were performing the best was typically at the bottom of the the rung when we did a rack and stack. Right? And vice versa.
Sam Naes: 12:30
A little self realization in both directions.
Mike Kitko: 12:33
And I think we spend so much time engaging with the outside world with the material world that we don't really dive inside and really understand ourselves at a deep level. And I think self awareness, a lack of self awareness is what creates the impostor syndrome, right? Lack of connection with yourself.
Sam Naes: 12:48
And overconfidence. It kind of in both directions.
Mike Kitko: 12:51
So here's my take on confidence, right? I'm going to give you my definition. It's not right or wrong. It's just mine is confidences, your ability to trust yourself with uncertainty. And I love when someone says I have no idea what to do. But I want to do it because I trust myself to be able to handle that thing, that I have no idea what I'm getting into. I'm a Marine veteran, right? It's about there's something over there. We got to go that way. I don't know what we're gonna do when we get over there and we don't know what's there. But we got to go that way because there's something over there and that's why you know, Marines have confidence, right? It's about I have no idea what I'm facing. But I trust myself to figure it out when I get over there and I think we see that we look for we define confidence, right. The way I used to define confidence is I know I can do this thing because I've done it before and now my redefinition is I have no idea what it is, but I'm gonna give it a shot because I trust myself to handle whatever outcome happens.
Sam Naes: 13:48
But you have to know the difference. Because there are, there are people that have what I call false confidence, and that's where they have never done it before. They don't have any experience, but they say "I'm going to do this," but they don't have that realization of. "I'm going to figure it out or I'm going to try." They more think they can,
Mike Kitko: 14:07
And they think that the result is certain because they're engaging with it rather than say, "Hey we'll give it a shot and we'll see what we get." And I'm good with myself either way, if I'm, if I, If I engage with that and I get great results or if I get poor results, it's no reflection on who I am in the value and worth that I hold within myself.
Sam Naes: 14:24
Well and that Oh, I'm sorry, Go ahead.
Jeff Koziatek: 14:27
No, I would say that's rare. That you're able to separate your personal worth and value from your mistakes or from your successes I'm saying that's very uncommon.
Sam Naes: 14:35
That's the difference, though, between real confidence and false confidence, because those same interns, when you have the ones that step up and say "Oh, I've got this, I can do this. I have, you know, I've done something similar. Therefore it should be no problem for me." Those are the ones that fall the hardest when they realize they can't.
Mike Kitko: 14:50
Because their value in their worth is tied up in their results.
Sam Naes: 14:54
Yeah.
Jeff Koziatek: 14:54
Right.
Mike Kitko: 14:54
And when you don't separate those, when you don't play a game with these things that we get to do in our relationship or in our career or in parenting. When you take it all the way too seriously, then your results or your value and worth hinges on your results and what's actually showing up. When you embrace it as a game that we get to experiment with and we get to try and not be perfect. When you're approaching life from that serious of a perspective and I'll say fight, flight or freeze? Survival when everything is a matter of survival, you're gonna live a really tough life did it for 43 years. Til I realize that it's all a game and I just made it way too serious.
Sam Naes: 15:32
And on that note do we have an imposter syndrome horror story? I bet you somebody could come up with one.
Mike Kitko: 15:37
Yeah, my own. My own right? 43 years in, shoot in the book I talk about when I was eight or nine years old and getting a call that I went to a baseball tryout where I remember driving home from the tryout with my dad. And just thinking I was an absolute failure just I completely was a train wreck. And it wasn't the most in shape kid, but I was definitely, you know, I had athletic ability above my form and my shape. But I remember just completely bombing the tryout, feeling like I was absolute disaster and completely rejectable on every level. And the next week, I got a call, I was the first number one overall pick and that in a self rejection of ourselves that we can't see any goodness in ourselves. To your point, we can look outside. We can see goodness in everybody else.
Christine Lawrence: 16:25
Thanks for listening to SuperManager by CN Video production. Visit our website at cn- video.com for additional episodes and lots of Super Manager resources or give us a call at 314-video-me.